Making Head gaskets Last on my Subaru
Subaru head gaskets are about as hot of a topic as national health care lately. If you own a Subaru you know what I mean.
Since the 2.5 liter Subaru engine was put into production there have been thousands of head gaskets replaced across the country. We’ve done a good portion of those ourselves. In another post I’ll go into further detail about the details of Subaru head gaskets but for today I would like to offer some suggestions on how to help prolong the ones you have.
Subaru head gaskets can fail for numerous reasons. Failure of sealant, improper torque, surface imperfections in the cylinder head or engine block and of course heat or excess heat.
I’m going to focus on excess heat. Within the engine block the coolant is circulating to keep the engine cool due to internal combustion occurring. The coolant remains in contact with the metal and is able to absorb heat, travel to the radiator and release the heat to the atmosphere.
Two important things must occur to for the coolant to do it’s job. It must have adequate flow to move the heat away from the internal areas of the engine and it must remain in contact with the areas it’s trying to cool.
There are 3 very important items that may individually have a negative impact on the coolant’s ability to do it’s job. If all 3 components are bad or inferior, problems could develop even sooner.
Subaru Radiator Cap
Radiator cap:
Keeps coolant in a sealed system, allows overflow to exit and return as coolant expands and contracts, but most importantly it raises the boiling point of the coolant in the system by keeping the cooling system pressurized. Most radiator caps for stock vehicles keep the system pressurized between 13-15psi. This can raise the boiling point depending on the mix of coolant/water an additional 35-40 degrees. A 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and water has a boiling point around 265 degrees. Add to that a radiator cap that holds 13psi and now you have coolant that won’t boil until 300 degrees .
There are areas throughout the engine where the coolant circulates that become very hot. So hot that it can boil coolant. Since we must have the coolant in contact with the metal to perform it’s heat transfer duties we now have a problem. Scenario: Radiator cap is weak (which we run into all the time on Subarus). A weak radiator cap not holding pressure may not let all of the coolant get hot enough to boil but there are areas within the engine that are now boiling. Boiling coolant has air bubbles that now keep the coolant from contacting the cylinder walls and other extremely hot areas within the engine. This heat is more than the engine and gasket were designed to withstand on a regular basis and thus a situation that will accelerate the failure of the gasket.
Flow of the coolant is important also. To keep from boiling the hot coolant must be quickly moved away from the hot cylinder walls up to the radiator so it can release it’s heat. Below is a picture of a Subaru water pump and also a quality Japanese aftermarket water pump. Although we for the most part believe in genuine Subaru parts, here’s a case where genuine Subaru part’s may not be the best choice. Note the stamped steel vanes on the Subaru pump vs the quality cast and machined impeller on the Japanese counterpart. The tight clearances and defined impeller vanes are very efficient at moving coolant through your Subaru engine. (an interesting side note that older Subaru water pumps were made nearly identical to the pump on the right).
Genuine Subaru Water Pump VS Aftermarket Japanese Water Pump
Another important part of keeping the hot coolant flowing out to the radiator and away from the internal hot spots in the engine is a high quality thermostat. I’ve shown below the comparison between a generic aftermarket brand on the left and a genuine Subaru thermostat on the right.
Aftermarket Thermostat VS Subaru Thermostat
Note the Subaru version has a much larger spring, larger diameter central area for coolant flow and is made of steel and brass. The generic brand contains copper, a big no no with Subaru. Subaru actually states that copper in a Subaru cooling system is ill advised and may cause excessive electrolysis and corrosion.
Even after trying to be dilligent about providing the best possible cooling for your Subaru you still may need to cross the head gasket bridge some day. If you ever get to that point, Smart Service will have a solution for you. We now offer new and improved aftermarket head gaskets which we believe will be the last ones your car will ever need. I’ll make a future post with more details about their construction.
Cheers,
Mike
I Like your site a lot. I have a 98 Forester with 170K miles that has been blowing coolant thru the reservoir for about a year. At first I had to add 1/2 gal. every week or so. Now its every other day. Temp sometimes rises close to red hot, but still the engine runs smoothly, no smoke, just coolant loss. Is there still hope for this engine? What about the chemical gasket fixes? My regular mechanics want to replace the engine($4000K)but I don’t have that kind of money. Will gasket replacement lead to discoveries like warped heads, etc? Help! George
Hi George,
Thank you for the question about your Subaru head gaskets. I’m sorry to hear of the situation.
Based on the many Subaru engines we’ve seen with this issue I think it is a strong possibility that if you disassemble the engine you will find warpage in the cylinder heads and engine block deck from hot exhasust gasses and overheating instances. Also the fact that the engine has 170k on it would also increase the odds of finding cylinder wall wear that would lead to replicing the block. Your description leades me to belive that the engine is in the later stages of head gasket failure. Subaru’s engine block and cylinder heads are aluminum and are more suseptable to damage from overheating than a cast iron engine.
Here’s the thought process we suggest when dealing with an obvious failure of Subaru head gaskets, especially when there is a strong possibility that the engine will be damaged beyond an economically sensible repair.
Do you still love your Subaru? If the answer is yes and it still meets your needs, then we anaylize the following. (0thwise now is the time to make the move into your next Subaru).
What is the condition of the rest of the Forester?
An overall analysis of all mechanical aspects of the your Subaru plays an important part in deciding whether to fix it or not.(this applys to any Subaru in need of a large repair) If it has few needs or issues, then it still may make sense to fix it, even if you have to spend 4k on a new engine. It still may be worth it compared to having car payments for the next 5 years plus a down payment to cough up. (make sure what they are suggesting really is new… some shops refer to used engines as new since they are new to the car… make sure of what you’re getting).
Now, if the vehicle inspection reveals there are many other problems with the car, now is the time to cut your losses and move on.
If one decides to move forward on the repair, the next step is to remove the engine, disassemble it and evaluate it’s condition. If the engine block is warped or damaged from the exhaust gasses burning the aluminum it will be necessary to replace the engine block. This can certainly push the repair into the $4k range and sometimes above depnding if any other items are included at the same time such as additional seals and gaskets, water pump, timing belt pulleys etc. I suggest being prepared for a worst case sceneario. If an engine isn’t needed then life is good and the Forester lives on for much less than expected. If not, you end up spending the larger amount of 4-5k and your Subaru Forester has a new lease on life.
As far as being sensible compared to “blue book” value… You’ll probably be spending about what the car is worth so look at it like you’re re-investing in your Subie in the hope of getting another 5+ years of trouble free transportation.
Another note… a shop disassembles your car, they discover the worst, and you decide not to go further, you’ll be left with an engine in pieces and a bill for the removal and dissambly of the engine.
As far as chemical fixes, I’ve never seen any work in this instance. The size of the failed spot in the head gasket is usually far larger than a chemical can repair. Subaru did offer a sort of chemical repair for head gaskets that were dripping coolant externally. I’ve seen it work for some cars and not for others. I’ve never seen it resolve an internal leak where combustion gas is being pumped into the coolant.
good luck,
Mike
I have a ’98 Subaru that I bought in ’05 as the third owner. I had it checked before I bought by a Subaru specialized shop in Boulder, CO. Everything checked out at the time. I drove it back to my parents house in Aspen, CO where I lived for two years, while getting a foot in my profession. The motor started leaking oil, I was told by the mechanic, due to a leaking cam shaft. As a result of the costs I was told it would take to repair, I decided to put a newer (used from Japan) motor into it. I’m now about 2 years down the road and am being told the motor I put into the car is a ’96 with hydrolic lifters, and now blown headgaskets. I’m looking at having the headgaskets replaced, but don’t have the money to do it, and don’t have the freedom not to drive it, as it is the daily driver to and from work. The engine has yet to over heat, and I’m told that is a good thing, but it’s only a matter of time. I trust the mechanics I have been taking it to, and know they aren’t just blowing smoke. I’m wondering if you would say it’s worth while to invest the money into repairing the motor that’s in it, or any suggestions you might have. Thank you for your time and consideration. And if you have any need for more information on other symptoms the car is displaying, I’ll be happy to share.
Dave
Hello Dave,
I’m sorry to hear of your dilemma, espescially the problems and expenses leading up to it. After reading your post I think your best option may very well be to repair the current engine. Since I don’t know how bad your head gaskets are or how they were diagnosed I really can’t tell you how soon to get them done. Just because the car isn’t overheating doesn’t mean it isn’t doing damage to the engine. If even the slightest bit of coolant seeps into the engine cylinder it can begin to damage the cylinder wall.
The 96 hydraulic lifter engine was overall a very good 2.5 for Subaru. If they do replace the head gaskets, make sure they evaluate the cylinder conditon, the head and block surface, and all the other surrounding parts like water pump, timing belt tensioners and idlers, seals etc.
The other factor to consider is the overall condition of the Outback. If, other than the head gasket problem, the rest of the car is in good shape with no immediate needs it would be a good investment. If the car is riddled with surrounding problems that are going to cause you to put large amounts of additional money into the car within the next 12 months then it may be time to either drive it into the ground or sell/trade it.
Good luck with your Subaru whatever you choose!
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Hi Mike
I have a 2002 Subaru Forester. I bought it in ’04 off-lease when it had 48K on it. I was not concerned about the high mileage since I walk to the train for work; since then I’ve only put about 8K a year on it. Now it’s at 98,000 miles.
Over the past couple of years, everything has seemed to go wrong — in 2008 I had to replace the center pipe (exhaust donut)and that gasket/nuts/bolt assemblage due to leak. At my next service, they replaced the oil pump o-ring and resealed the pump. Spring of 2009 it was the rear catalytic converter shields, which were cracked.
(I am not including “normal” stuff, like my battery, timing belt, and F/R brake jobs, the repairs and replacement of which happened when one would expect.)
I just took it in for service and they told me my head gasket had an oil leak (NOT a coolant leak). I was also told it was something I wouldn’t notice myself since the oil wasn’t hitting the ground, i.e. no tell-tale spots on the driveway or anything. Expensive repair, as you know. I asked how urgent it was, and the service dept said I could get through ’til spring as long as I keep an eye on the oil level.
This is the thing: I have religiously followed the Subaru maintenance schedule for service; my last one was September. But every time I go in there’s another major repair, and it always an expensive problem.
Should I get a second opinion on this? I guess I find it interesting that they specified *oil* — in other words, I have the gasket problem which isn’t covered by warranty. Plus, it just seems like I’m getting nickeled and dimed on this car, which is amazing to me on an ’02 model with less than 100K on it. Do I start looking for a new vehicle? Or a different Subaru service department?
Mike,
What make of water pumps do you suggest for 99 OBW 2.5L DOHC?
I can find ones made by Bosch, NPW, and Paraut (claim to be OEM). The one by GMB is similar to the stamped impeller shown as OEM.
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1999/subaru/legacy/cooling_system/water_pump.html
Planning for TB change and wonder what supplier you use for your Subaru Water Pumps. Bosch name is familiar and appears to match you photo. Any comments?
Thanks!
Hello Mike,
My 1999 Subaru legacy outback had the head gasket problem and repair in 2005. Now(2009) at 140, 000 + miles, it is working fine. I love my car. But am thinking it won’t go another 75,000 miles and should get another one. Do you have any advice?
thanks.
Hi Iian,
I think first I’d like to comment on your exhaust. Subaru makes a good exhaust system but depending on where you live rust can be a big issue where they salt the roads for snow. Up in the Seattle area the exhausts just about last the life of the vehicle (as long as the catalytic converter doesn’t wear out). Also lot’s of short trips can rot an exhaust system from the inside out much quicker because of the moisture inside the exhaust never fully evaporates. (you’ll notice vapor and water drips off your tailpipe when your car is warming up).
As far as the head gasket question, I think from your attention to detail keeping your Forester serviced it should be a good car for miles to come. The oil leak is somewhat of a concern but from the sounds of yours it may be quite a while before you have to address the issue. My concern is if you have any coolant leaking from the same area. If your coolant level has remained steady you’re probably fine. That area of the head gasket may go a few years or less than a year. It’s tough to tell. The one thing I’ve learned about that particular engine is that eventually you will have to replace the head gaskets. The key is to save ahead of time and make sure it’s done at a quality shop. In the mean time it wouldn’t hurt to get a second opinion. If it’s a light leak, they may just advise you to monitor it until it becomes bad or until coolant starts making it’s way out.
Good luck,
Mike
Mike,
Go with the Paraut. When you compare it to your Subaru water pump you’ll see the difference in quality. That’s what we use.
good luck,
Mike
Hi Catherine,
Keep driving!
Your Subaru sounds like it got the tlc it needed when they replaced the head gaskets last time. If they haven’t failed by now there’s a good chance you’ll get another 75k out of it. I’m guessing you’ll have other repairs like small leaks, and other extraneous repairs but I’m guessing the head gaskets won’t be one of them.
My second reason to keep driving your Outback is that by now a 1999 Outback with 140k on it isn’t valued that high blue book anyway and you’ll get way more value out of it driving it vs. selling or trading it in. You’d probably get the same for a trade in even if the head gaskets eventually did go.
Take care,
Mike
Mike,
I wrote in a few weeks ago, and am preparing to have some major work done to my Subie. The mechanic I go to has diagnosed the problems of the car to be a blown headgasket in cylinders 1 and 3, a cracked CV boot on the front passenger side, and I need to replace the rear brakes and rotors. They told me I should be able to smell exhaust in the coolant overflow, and I check this weekend, but I can’t say I smell anything aside from coolant. On top of that, after reading what you’ve advised other folks, the coolant level is full in the radiator and above full in the coolant overflow box. The oil has been leaking for some time, from I don’t know where, they told me I have a warped separator plate and that drips onto the catalytic converter and that is why I can smell burning oil when the car is running, but it seems to be a small enough amount that it doesn’t require oil added on a regular basis, and I check the oil level every couple of weeks. The car is a ’98 Legacy, with a ’96 2.5L DOHC, I had to have it replaced as you will recall from my previous post. I love the car, and I figure I can’t buy a new car for the price of what they are asking to repair this car. The estimate is about $3400 to cover all parts, labor and taxes. That included all the parts to be replaced for the headgaskets, (i.e. coolant system, etc.) which is most of the expense (about $2400), the CV boot so long as it’s just the boot is about $300, and brakes and rotors is about $600. I trust the shop I go to, and I know the guys do the best they can without tearing everything apart to diagnose things. My question is this, what other signs should I be looking for that would indicate that it is a blown headgasket and not something else less major? I would really be upset if they get into it, and find that it wasn’t the headgaskets after all but rather something really simple like a dirty spark plug or something that was causing the check engine light to go on. Also, do you think the price they are charging is fair? Ultimately, I am wondering if I should just focus on the brakes, rotors, and CV boot for now, and let the headgaskets go for a while longer before getting them fixed? Thanks for your input.
Dave
Hi Dave,
It all sounds like a reasonable course of action and price. Failure of the head gaskets is best diagnosed by either visible coolant dripping from area of head gaskets or hydrocarbons are detected in cooling system. (an emissions gas analyzer is best used for this). The seperator plates do tend to leak and are good to do at the same time as the head gaskets due to some overlapping labor savings. I would want a definitive answer on what the exact failure of the head gaskets is. One can also pressurize each cylinder individually with compressed air (leakdown test) and monitor for bubbles coming out of radiator. No bubbles, no internal head gasket failure. (there are exceptions that only leak when warm or cold).
As far as the check engine light being related, maybe they are thinking of a valve problem that would be solved with a valve grind when the heads are off. More specifics would be helpful.
Good luck,
Mike
Mike,
I took my 2002 Legacy Wagon to the dealer for a scheduled oil change, and was told I needed new headgaslets, fuel pump , timing belt. I’m wondering about the gaskets since it was done at 58000 miles.(I now have 92000miles) I wondered if this is usual and if Subaru could bear some of this cost of the new headgaskets again. I didn’t notice anything different about my car this time since it is not leaking in my garage or any warning lights, but they told me it was a major problem that needed immediately done. I am taking the car in tomorrow and the cost is $1500. What do you think? thanks
Hi Suzie,
The price if doing just the head gaskets is reasonable. I am wondering the same thing as you, why did hey already fail again and what kind of failure is it? Also, not sure why the fuel pump is being included. Having head gaskets fail multiple times if the job was done at the dealer might qualify from some help from Subaru corporate. I would call 1-800-SUBARU3 and explain your situation to them. It may go nowhere but I’ve also heard instances where Subaru has reimbursed people in special cases.
Good luck,
Mike
I have a 1998 Subaru Forester with 146K miles on it. Up until three weeks ago it was fine, having required very few repairs over its life [axles, rotors, that's about it.] But it began running hot at speeds over 50, and after replacing the radiator to no avail, my mechanic tells me that, in all likelihood it’s the head gasket. He recommends I consider replacing the entire engine with a used, low mileage one with a warranty. While it costs a little more than doing the heads [$2K vs $1.5K], there are fewer old parts to break down. The only downside is the risk that a new engine will put pressure on an old drive train and transmission, leading to more costly repairs. I have to decide over the next week or so whether to repair a 12 year old car, or buy something new, as not being able to do highway driving is a problem. While I’d love to get a new car, I can’t afford it right now. I’m tempted to get a new engine and hope I can get a few more years out of the car, but I’m wondering if it’s throwing good money after bad. Thoughts?
Hi Mike,
As many others on this post I am having a headgasket issue on my 04′ Forester. The engine has 125K in mileage. I was recently told by my mechanic the right bank headgasket is leaking oil. He stated I should keep an eye on the oil level for now and watch out for coolant consumption and/or leaking. I was advised they would have to pull the engine out completely to replace both headgaskets and the cost to be $1200 to $1500 depending on any other issues found. I know at some point I will have to go through the process, however is it really necessary replacing both headgaskets at the same time? The left side is bone dry with no issues. I was told the right side is known to be a problem. Any reasons why the right over the left? Thanks for any advice/comments you may have.
Cam
Sorry to hear of your Subaru problem. The Forester drivetrain should have no problem handling a newer engine, even a brand new engine if money were no object. If you do get a used engine I recommend replacing the known weak components before you install it into your car. It can be a great long term fix (assuming it’s done correctly) with some short term hits to the pocket book. The parts I’d recommend are the head gaskets, the front and rear seals, the timing belt and possibly the waterpump and timing belt tensioners depending on their condition. This could up the price a bit further but if the rest of the Subaru is in good shape it could get you another 100k with regular repairs and maintenance along the way. This could end up saving quite a bit in the long run compared to buying a new Subaru.
Good luck,
Mike
Hi Cam,
Your Forester may not need head gaskets as soon as you think. If you have no loss of coolant or no visible coolant on the head gasket area and it’s just oil it may be OK for now. If the oil is residual and not a drip it may take quite a while before it develops into something more serious. Also, it’s the left side that tends to be the problem gasket. We advising doing both at the same time once you decide to do the gaskets because of the labor savings while everything is disassembeled.
I would say for now, monitor the oil and coolant level until the next oil change and if there is no loss of either then just have a visual inspection done to make sure it’s not getting worse. It may be at the stage where we’d advise a Subaru owner to monitor until it worsens. (which can be 3 months or 3 years). The fact that the predominant failure side is bone dry is a good thing.
Good luck in your Forester
Mike Corbin
I’ve been smelling burning oil on a 1999 Subaru Forester I recently purchased. Today while looking for an oil leak with the engine running, I discovered a small amount of a thick black oil around the Driver’s side head gasket as well as some coolant drops.
How long can we drive the car like this? We have only had it a very short time and did purchase an extended warranty, but I am not sure if the warranty has kicked in yet. The car only has 65,000 miles on it.
I’m wondering about the timing belt and water pump as well. I do not think these items would be covered on the ext warranty, but would like to know what is a fair price to pay to have these done.
Thanks!
Rick
Hi Mike,
The short block on my 2002 subaru forester engine was replaced recently. Someone told me in order to do that the mechanic would have to chnage the headgaskets too. Is that true? I appreciate your feedback.
Tom
Yes, you must install new head gaskets during a short block replacement.
Mike
Hi. Very useful site, thanks for setting it up. I am considering buying a Subaru Forester for my son to take to college in the snowy Midwest (Iowa). And I have been reading about the head gasket issue. Pre-2005 Foresters are significantly cheaper than post-2005 Foresters, presumably both because of overall aging and the headgasket issue being more serious for models before 2005. I have found a 2002 Forester with 85K mile for a reasonable price at a Subaru dealer who took it in trade because the previous owner did not want to deal with the HG problem. Their service dept immediately replaced the head gasket and did some minor repairs. The question is, how well do engines with the replaced head gaskets perform? Is it likely we will get a a few years before having to do the job again? Note that when we lived in Australia 1997-2005, we drove a 1992 Liberty sedan up to 200K miles (and then sold it for $2500) , with an engine overhaul (oil leaks etc) around 140K. Thanks in advance for your help. JHH
I’m a firm believer that if a head gasket job is done with care and precision that it may never need to be done again. The later generation Subaru gaskets held up fairly well although there have been some aftermarket brands that appear to be lasting even longer.
If the job was done right I’d have confidence that you’ll get many many miles out of the Forester.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
Mr. Corbin
thank you for posting this blog.
2000 legacy 245,876 mi original owner.
i am DIY mech. i do as much of the work that i can. but i have reached the end of my rope. last spring i replace the timing belt by myself (second time). by oct/nov 2009 the water pump went. ( it was the OEM. 225,000 mi) replaced it but was still having leaking issues. mild one off the water pump itself i did not get the seal right. this spring i started to have issues with the cooling fans running constantly. Replaced the Engine coolant temp sensor which fixed the poor idle on cold start ups; but not the fan problem. i have replaced Rad cap and the thermostat with quality after market parts. fans still engage and stay on unless i’m moving at hi-way speeds. then only the primary fan runs . once i stop and idle the secondary fan kicks in. i just replaced the water pump gasket with an OEM style and inspected the inside of Radiator(clean no contaminates) but the issues still is the fans engages. the fans only operate after about 45 min of driving ; and problem will stop if i let the engine cool for about 10 min. i added the coolant supplement to cooling system per SUBARU TSB. I can smell no coolant at the tail pipe but i have a small oil leaks under the block right side. i have no oil in the coolant and coolant in the oil that i can detect. cold engine at start up and i do not get any large bubbles at the filler neck.
what can i do next to diagnose the fan issue. or what is the next step.
once again thank you for this web page and i wish you were in the Washington D.C. area.
Give us a call at 1-866-417-0880 and we can give you the part number and or sell them to you directly.
You will normally only find that they are available at a Subaru independent repair shop.
Mike
Hi Garth,
Before going too much further I would advise you find someone with an emissions exhaust gas anaylizer.
These are very proficient in diagnosing Subaru head gasket issues. An unsolvable overheating condition can many times be the result of exhaust gasses pushing into the cooling system and creating air pockets. (exhaust pockets).
As these air pockets move around within the engine they can cause strange things to occur includint overheating.
We recommend that a person hold the test hose of an emission anaylizer over their radiator neck and coolant recovery bottle while watching the hydrocarbon reading on the anaylizer. If the Subaru has a blown head gasket you will se the HC’s climb. Zero is the reading you want to see.
Last but not least, a simple thing that can get some Subaru DIY’s is bleeding the cooling system properly.
As long as your thermostat has a bleed hole in it you should be able to slowly fill the radiator while the bleed screw on the other end of the radiator is removed to burp out air pockets. Running the Subaru after doing this with the radiator cap off will purge out a few more pockets but most will be gone if the above procedure is followed. If the thermostat is aftermarket and doesn’t have a bleed hole, it may be difficult to bleed out the air.
Good luck with your Subaru!
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Hi Mike,
so happy to come across this website as I am having just about every issue mentioned above or have already fixed…(basically been their done that stage) with my 98 Forester. So here I am already put a used engine in a month ago. The guy who fixed it said the engine would have a loud tapping sound until I drove it awhile and the oil works it’s way through. He said the cause is the engine sitting waiting to be put in a car.. Is there anything I can do to make the sound stop. My brother said I mite be able to have it adjusted but he said he was unsure with this being a 98. I would have thought if it could be done the guy who fixed it would have, but I keep hearing comment’s about them not wanting to bother with it. So if you say it can be adjusted I will take it else where. I just need enough time to drive it and save what I already put into it and it’s gone.. Thank you, M
MaryAnn,
It depends on what the loud tapping sound is on your Subaru Forester.
If it is a tapping sound that goes away after 10-15 minutes as the car warms up, don’t worry it’s normal. It’s a sound that occurs because of the pistons slapping against the cylinder walls until they warm up, expand and reduce the clearance between the piston and cylinder wall. I have yet to see a Subaru engine fail because of this noise.
It may also be a valve that is misadjusted. One can listen with a stethescope to see if it’s on the outer reaches of the engine. If so you may need to check the valve clearance.
The other tapping sound can be the result of worn internal engine components. If it’s there all the time, it could also be a failing rod bearing, piston wrist pin or main bearing.
I would definately have another shop at least evaluate the noise.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert at Smart Service
Mike,
Myself and my mechanic friend are at our wits end! We are located in Florida but I came across your website and am seriously hoping you can help. I have a 98 Outback Legacy wagon. The car won’t accelerate even if you “floor it” from a complete stop but if you shifted it into 1st gear and manually shifted it would “go” and then once it got up to 25/30 MPH it rode just fine and shifted fine. But as soon as you had to stop at a light it would bog down again and the whole scenerio started over. Someone mentioned the Mass airflow sensor? Scott (my friend) said that the fuel injectors were very dirty. He cleaned these but that didn’t help much. After doing this he noticed that the car wouldn’t continue to run it almost sounded like it was out of gas (which it wasn’t) I’m hoping you have some idea what it may be. I really could use some of your expert advice. Thank you in advance.
I would need a bit more information on what you’ve done so far. If the plugs, wires and coil have been eliminated as possibilities, the MAF Sensor may be the culprit (especially if it has a “160″ for the last 3 numbers in the part number). Does the check engine light ever illuminate, or are there any resident codes in the memory?
If it were a MAF sensor, a person should be able to monitor it’s function with a scan tool and verify that it’s signal to the ECM is erroneous when the symptom occurs.
Good luck with your Subaru!
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
Smart Service
Hi Mike, We bought a subura forester 2001, with 112,00 miles on it , owned by 1 owner,and carfax had all the service work , and was always service on time as well as preventive maintance , there is a sticker under the hood that says something about w something 80 service campaign service done in 2002 a year after the car came out in 2001 . i was told this had something to do with the recall of the headgaskets, now does this mean they recalled it and they fixed the headgaskets , or they put something it them to seal the gaskets ? i took it it not to long ago cause the check engine light was on , they told it was the cat , so i had the back cat replaced , cause they said thats the one that usally fails , have had a problem since, but the mechanic said he had to flush the radator , and put some subaru head gaskets sealant. it really hasnt leaked any anti freeze , no sign anyways , but he said to keep a eye on loseing anti freeze , at this year do i have to have the head gaskets replace??
Hi Keith,
The service campaign sticker under the hood of your Subaru Forester probably refers to the “Coolant Conditioner” campaign that Subaru did on many of it’s models. In short, you were asked to come into the Subaru dealer so that they could add this “Conditioner” to the coolant. Once the coolant conditioner was done, Subaru would then extend the warranty on the vehicle’s head gaskets for 8 years or 100,000 miles for external coolant leakage only. Once past on time or mileage the warranty would expire.
At first Subaru recommend that only specific years of their vehicles should get the coolant conditioner added when changing coolant on a Subaru. They then came out with a subsequent bulletin recommend the addition of the conditioner to all Subarus when the coolant was changed.
In short, it seems to contain some kind of aerobic “stop leak”.
The negative outcome of the additive could be more plugged radiators and heater cores down the road.
As far as whether to replace the head gaskets yet, I see no need to replace them as long as they are still holding up.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
MR. Corbin…
once again thanks for the site. after much hair pulling and 2800 dollars i have had the head gasket replaced by a local Subi shop. here is what i learned after replacing many parts.
Yes The head gasket was ( not HAD) failing. oil was entering the cooling system. as i was chasing the issues with new parts the cooling system was “tightening up”. the Subi shop was as stumped as i was because of know tell tale signs of blow head gasket were not present. what was causing the engine fans to run all the time and the wild temp swings was because the oil was congealing and cloging the cooling system. most of the sludge was in the radiator. the shop was truly amazed that the car had 250,000 miles when the gaskets went. you can see were the gaskets failed both almost in the exact same location. i hope this blog helps future customers make a educated guess.
P.S. i would have done the job my self. but when the manual tell to remove the Cams… that is were i threw in the towel.
Thank you for your input on your head gasket issue. I have not come across that scenario yet in either of our shops where oil is entering the cooling system (although I have seen coolant making it into the oil in a couple of cases).Just one more thing for the Subaru owner to be aware of when diagnosing an overheating condition.
Cheers,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Mike,
I have a 1996 Subaru SVX with 74K miles on it. I bought it from the original owner. It was a southern car so it looks pretty clean and solid. The only issue is that the temperature gauge fluctuates slightly from low (30-35%) to normal (40-45%) as I drive it. The temp isn’t random but does seem to correlate with the driving conditions. I didn’t see any evidence of coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. I don’t see white smoke from the exhaust. The coolant level in the overflow tank will go from just above “L” when cold to just below “H” when warm. I am getting the thermostat and radiator cap changed today and they will do a flush. What are the odds that I have a head gasket issue. I have been told it is rare for the H6 engines but others say it is inevitable with age.
From your description of your temperature fluctiation you may have nothing wrong with your SVX. The coolant recovery bottle seems to be functioning as designed. Your thoughts to change your thermostat are a good logical start. We rarely see head gasket issues on the Subaru SVX or any of the H6′s for that matter. Once you change the thermostat, it would be interesting to monitor the coolant temperature with a scan tool to see when the cooling system fans kick in and when they shut off. It would also be interesting to see if the temperature on the scan tool correlated with the temperature on the dash. When eliminating possibilities, don’t forget to include the temperature gauge and temp sender in the process.
A final test of the cooling system with an emission analyzer should also confirm the head gaskets are ok. If there are no hydrocarbons in the cooling system and no external leaks, they should be fine.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Thanks Mike. I just recently discovered the “dead zone” in the temperature gauge. I never realized that they were designed to sit dead for a range of “normal” temperatures and only move when the temperature was too cool or too hot and outside of this normal range. Now that I know that, the temperature sender is a logical thing to change. I suppose I should have done that before changing the thermostat and radiator cap. But I guess a coolant flush on a new-used car is a good idea and the other parts weren’t really too expensive so it wasn’t all for not. Tomorrow I swap out the sender!
One more question. Should the Subaru “conditioner” be used on the H6 engine or is the TSB only for the H4 engines? If not, is there any decent seal/gasket conditioner coolant additive out there worth using?
Subaru recommends the coolant conditioner be added to all of their vehicles at this time any time the coolant is changed.
Mike
Can the conditioner be added to the overflow tank if my mechanic missed it when filling the radiator?
By the way, my issues were due to the temperature sender. I guess the resistance drifted high over the years.
I would suggest sucking out some from the radiator itself then adding the coolant conditioner. If you put it in your overflow tank it may take a while for it to become dispersed throughout the engine.
Glad it was only a sensor issue!
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Dear Mike,
I recently purchased my 3rd Subaru: 1996 legacy outback, 2.5l with 147,000 miles. The main issues are: it gets very bad gas mileage, @ 12 mpg, wires and plugs look pretty old. I was reading the previous owners maintenance paperwork and there was contaminated coolant in overflow bottle, which was cleaned and changed (2007). Then a year later there was a hole in the radiator hose, so they replaced it and then a month later “possible oil in coolant”, so they drained and refilled the radiator. I obviously should have checked this first or gotten an inspection, stupid move on my part. They also replaced the crank position sensor and the form says “advise on possible oil leak on rear main seal.” Yikes, I can’t afford all that labor -tranny removal, ect.
My question is, are the gasket/s blown or leaking internally? It passed smog with flying colors in July, right before I bought it. I have since changed the air and oil filters, oil change, radiator flush, fuel injection cleaning, and CV joints. There was sludge in the overflow bottle. The car wasn’t driven for over a year before I bought it, which I now know is bad for seals and gaskets. Everyone I take it to says if the CEL isn’t on, it’s fine. It doesn’t overheat, at least not yet and drives well, besides for the poor gas mileage problem. Should I try to fix this car, or is it a goner? BTW, I don’t have money for an engine rebuild or head gasket repair, but if there is anything I can do that will make it run longer that is below 4 figures, I would do it in a heartbeat. Also, I can’t sell the car ethically knowing there may be a serious problem with it. It’s a pickle… can you please impart some car wisdom for me Mike?
Mike,
My 02 Outback H6 VDC is in the independent shop right now. They replacing head gaskets because I complained about engine overheating and bubbles in coolant tank. I trust the mechanic but he is not a Subaru specialist and it a first time he disassemble Subaru H6 engine. He got head gasket repair kit, sent heads to machine shop and assembled the engine but noticed a small oil leak from head gasket area. He disassembled engine again, got original Subaru head gaskets
(he found no difference between first and second sets of head gaskets) and going to reassemble the engine again today. He told me that will will throw a towel if the engine leak will reappear and he is out of ideas about the reason for leak. He told me that Subaru do not use any sealant for head gaskets assembly – it’s just metal on metal. Have you heard about this or similar problems ?
Do you have any advise ?
Thanks!
I have not heard of an H6 leaking immediately after installing head gaskets. I agree with using the genuine Subaru head gaskets on that job and agree that they need to be installed with a perfectly clean surface and no sealant.
The only idea that I may have about the oil leak is to question the condition of the surface of the engine block itself in the area that the leak develops if this round doesn’t do the trick.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Hi Morgan,
First of all, if you do have a head gasket issue going on with your Subaru, it may not be worth putting the additional time and money into chasing down the other problems based on your budget. A simple test is to have someone with an exhaust emissions analyzer sniff the contents of the coolant recovery bottle and radiator for presence of hydrocarbons.
If hydrocarbons are present then this confirms either a failed head gasket (most probable) or worse, a cracked head or block (unlikely).
It may be the type of vehicle that makes sense to repair if you can do the work yourself but if you are paying a shop to do it all it may blow your budget.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Mike, what’s the price range for engine block of H6 outback resurfacing and how can i find machine shop who does the job?
I got a quote for $750 and it seems too high. I am in San Francisco Bay area.
Hi Dan.
I believe that price may well be within the reasonable range. To surface a Subaru engine block, the block must be fully disassembeled, all the way down to the crank. Once the case halves are empty, the machine shop can then resurface them.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
I have a 2002 Subaru Forester with 77,000 miles which I just recently took to the dealer for the scheduled oil change. I religiously take it to the dealer for oil changes and maintanence. They told me and later showed me that I had a “small” oil leak coming from the cylinder head gasket (driver’s side) and barely anything from the other side. They quoted me $2,200 for the head gasket repair (ouch!). At just 77,000 miles I’m thinking of getting a coolant flush (with the conditioner) and a new radiator cap and ride it out until I see oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil or it starts to overheat. What do you think?
Thanks,
Marty
Mike,
What coolant should be used for various model years though the 90s and 2000s? It seems like Subaru switched at least once, if not twice. Should we go with the latest or with what our cars originally came with? And what did they originally come with? For example, my car is a 1996 SVX. Zerex suggests the G-05 or the Dex-Cool stuff. I am very weary of Dex-Cool and the G-05 is a special version of low silicate, zero phosphate formula that has, I believe, nitrites in it to prevent cavitation. Ironically, they sell an “Asian” coolant that is a zero silicate phosphated HOAT formula which, I believe, is similar to one of the Subaru coolants. It is very confusing. And then you add in the possibility of water wetters like Redline’s Water Wetter and it gets more confusing because that supposedly causes brown sludge in some coolants (blue long life?).
Speaking of brown sludge, can the Subaru additive cause a small amount of light brown sludge/goo/deposits in the overflow tank?
hey,
the timing belt on my 2000 subaru forester has snapped,the mechanic has told me that it needs some valves changed,timing belt of course the pulley and will need head resurface,what would be the approximate quote for the whole thing!!!including labor?he says it just needs changed some valves on the right only about 2 .am in oakland md
thanks
ken
Hi Ken,
I agree with your mechanics diagnosis of bent valves. If a Subaru newer than 1997 breaks a timing belt it is inevitable that the valves bend. I would guess in your situation you may spend between $2500-3000 for the repair depending on how many other seals and gaskets they opt to replace.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Hi Marty,
No worries yet.
It’s actually good news to hear when someone only reports only a minor oil leak from a Subaru head gasket. If they ever report coolant coming from that area of the head gasket then it’s time to take action.
Here’s what I’d do:
Continue driving as you normally would.
Have the vehicle serviced at Subarus recommended intervals (next coolant change due at 90000 miles if you already had your 60000 mile service done)
Each oil change, have someone inspect the head gasket area for any sign of coolant and at the same time see if the coolant level has gone down over the same peroid of time.
In summary, as long as it’s just oil seeping from the head gaskets, there is no need for action. If coolant ever begins to drip from the same area, then head gaskets are a must. Maybe not upon first sign of coolant residue but don’t put it off until oil/coolant mix. If you wait that long the motor will probably be damaged beyond repair. (the coolant leaks slowly over a long period of time and if the owner isn’t aware and topping up the coolant, an overheating event occurs and causes heavy damage to the engine and block).
I hope it’s years before you have to cross the head gasket bridge.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Hi Tony,
Subaru recommends a non-amine phosphat type of coolant in all of their vehicles. I don’t feel the need to put any other additives like water wetters etc. I’d stay away from Dex-cool also.
I’ll also email you an article specific to Subaru Coolant.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Recently overheated & blew a HG on my 95 legacy this is the EJ22 which I am told is a robust little motor, I removed both heads sent them off to a auto machinists to get resurfaced & pressure tested, that said what is the likely hood of having warp age from excessive Over heating on the block, If so do the casings need to be split for the block to be machined?
Thanks in Advanced
Greetings Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions. That’s fantastic!
I have a 2002 Forester with 95,000 miles. Just had the timing best replaced as well as the water pump, thermostat and various belts and seals. (no issue with the head gasket) The work was done by my mechanic whom I have dealt with for over 20 years and whom I trust.
One small issue. It “seems” to me that the cooling fans are running far too often and long. (outside temp. now about 45 degrees) Before the fix I can’t remember them running much at all, but now they are on almost all the time. The temp. gauge is normal and the engine is not overheating. My mechanic put a meter on and read 194 degrees while driving. He said things seem ok to him. He offered to replace the new thermostat, but didn’t think it was necessary.
Should the fans be running that much? If not would a Subaru thermostat help as you mention above? Any other and all comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Nelson
Hi Nelson,
It sounds like the fans on the Forester may be running too much as you suspect. Your idea about the thermostat may be valid. If there’s not a genuine Subaru thermostat in place I’d recommend that first. The other condition that may be occuring is that the radiator may be starting to plug up. If the radiator is emptied and has coolant contitioner in the system, it may solidify when exposed to air, thus creating a restricted radiator.
If you’re in changing the thermostat, check the flow of the radiator when the coolant is out.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
I agree that the EJ22 is a robust motor. Frankly probably the best engine Subaru ever built to date. They are pretty forgiving when they overheat and most of the time you can get by with just machining the heads. The only way to tell if the block needs to be machined is to measure it for warpage.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Mike,
I just bought my first Subaru, a used 2005 Forester XT, a week ago. It has about 44,000 miles on it and runs like a dream. However, I checked the oil in it today, exactly 7 days after purchase, and I’m low on oil….right at the ‘L’. I checked it when I bought it and it was clean and full. I haven’t noticed anything on the ground or on the engine itself, but now I’ve got the new car jitters. Needless to say this has me a little uneasy! Wisdom to offer? Thanx!
Wow, I don’t know what to tell you other than keep an close eye on the level. I would also recommend switching to full synthetic oil asap. Subaru now recommends using synthetic oil in all 2002 and up turbocharged Subarus and requires it on 2011 turbo Subarus. Mobil 1 is excellent and if the oil consumption still exists after switching you may try Pennzoil Platinum synthetic. It has won great support from some of our clients that have had oil burning issues in the past.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
I have always found the web forums to be extremely insightful, and especially this one. My beloved ’99 Subaru Legacy Outback has just developed what I believe to be this dreaded head gasket problem with only 89,000 miles on it. It overheated once a month ago, and since then I have been diligent about the level of fluid and only driving it for very short distances in the village and not much at all. But it just developed a gurgling noise which is becoming louder and occurs when I accelerate and on turns to the right. If I didn’t hate the closest dealership so much I would go there, but I have notbeen satisfied at all that they do proper servicing. I will need to have this addressed and buying a new car is not an option right now. Is this gurgling a radiator problem or head gasket???
I have a 2008 Subaru Outback 2.5i with 43,000 miles on it. I took it in today for the routine oil change, the dealership told me the head gasket needed to be replaced. Luckily SOA will cover the cost under warranty, but since I am in Canada and the car is US spec I will need to pay the cost up front and get reimbursed from SOA. The mechanic quoted me 6.6 hours ($300/hr), $300 for the part. Would it be better to replace both gaskets at the same time? Also, are there other components that should be repalced at the same time?
I can say I’m actually surprised the gasket failed. I’ve kept the car in good working order, all routine maintenance has been done and the only thing I noticed lately was a slight smell of burning oil when coming home from work the other day….no visible leaks and no engine overheating.
Wow, that’s the first I’ve heard of a 2008 Outback with failing head gaskets. I’m glad for you that it will be covered under the dealer warranty.
The mechanic’s quote sounds about right for what Subaru allows for warranty time. I don’t think it would be advisable to replace both head gaskets in your case since you have very low miles on the car. I’d say otherwise if you were around 100000 miles or more.
Hopefully once it’s done it’ll provide you with many trouble free miles for years to come.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Hi Karen,
It is common to develop the gurgling sound when the head gaskets on a 99 Outback begin to fail.
The sound is from air bubbles (more specifically exhaust bubbles) circulating through the coolant. They are pushed into the cooling system past the failing head gaskets and creat air pockets.
The radiator itself will not cause the gurgling but it is a good practice to check it’s condition at the time you repair the head gaskets. If new head gaskets are installed on a Subaru with a restricted radiator, you chance overheating the engine and damaging the new head gaskets.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Hi Mike,
I have own this 1999 Subaru Legacy GT sedan 2.5L since August, 2010. It recently started over heating. I’ve replaced the thermostat with a new OEM, radiator flush w/ Jiffy Lube, new radiator cap & also tried a sealant called K-Seal (high positive feedback,so I tried it), all in which failed. I believe the K-seal liquid metal helped slow down the over heating a little bit. I’ve taken it for a test drive after each different replacement to find the cause. K-seal seems to work the best but all to conclude with overheating after Highway driving of 45-60 minutes. It use to last only 15 mins HWY driving w/out K-seal.
I’ve come to find your wonderful website with a lot of helpful information for Subaru problems. I’ll be ordering the MLS head gaskets you guys sell. I’ll also be getting the water pump you recommended from partsgeek. My question would be is when would be the right time for a new timing belt? I’d like to tackle it all when having a local mechanic shop install the water pump and head gaskets. I currently have 98k miles on the car. Thank you!
Hello,
The normal replacement interval for the timing belt is 105k miles so since you’re that close, just replace it when you’re doing the head gaskets and water pump.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
hey Mike
Firstly–thanks for helping us out with these Subaru problems..its a great forum to read!
I have a 99 outback…it has 168,000 miles on it..I Love the car and really cant afford a new one. I have a slightly mysterious problem. At around 90000 miles…I brought the car to a local mechanic–who did a major tune up and some other various repairs…He called me to tell me the car was ready–but when I arrived to pick it up,,he said there was something strange going on..the car was overheating..the gauge pinned and he asked me had it ever happened before.I said “no” he changed the thermostat and it seemed to be ok..i took it home but it overheated again soon after.. I talked to a friend/fellow Subaru owner who alerted me to the common head gasket issue,
I read posts and posts on the internet–and was quite concerned–but my mechanic wasnt convinced..I brought it back to him –i believe (if i recall properly) that he said it was a bad radiator cap–changed it for free and off I went..without another issue with overheating for years,
Last week–at 168,000 miles-years later!-I decided to bite the bullet and get much work done..because i decided to attempt to drive the car a few more years…so I spent 2100.00 on tires, struts, brakes-rotors and new catalytic converter…
Picked it up–the car ran great..Took it to Mieneke the following day to change the valve cover gaskets..which had been leaking for years…the last fix (i thought) They changed them–told me to pick the car up (just like the mechanic at 90,000 miles did!) and when i arrived..they said ‘There’s a problem– we test drove your car and all of a sudden-the temp spiked—has this ever happened before?” I told them about the previous issue years back…It was SO strange how it happened BOTH times right after work had been done–and for totally unrelated issues…there was never a problem with overheating when I brought it in either time! so they kept it over night…and changed the thermostat..and temp sensor… (the mechanic claimed that though the gauge was on “high”–it wasnt really overheating –because the coolant wasnt that hot and the upper hose not especially hot either.
So they said it was fixed..I drove on a 300 mile trip the next day–no problems.
yesterday..i drove 150 miles–the car was like a dream…got off the highway and all of a sudden..the temp spiked up..
got it to my destination (very close by)…this time it was actually overheating..coolant coming out….This morning..added coolant…and drove home 150 miles with no problems.
.any ideas? why is it intermittent like that? and why did it happen BOTH times after having it serviced for unrelated issues..
.Two other details…after they fixed it last week..each time I started the car–i would hear this weird gurgling sound like liquid flowing behind the dashboard that id NEVER heard before..and also–after it overheated yesterday–i opened the hood–and as the car cooled down–the upper hose completely collapsed..then inflated again later..
I did see some bubbling in the overflow tank as the car was cooling down..and some sludge along the sides of the tank too.
could I luck out with another bad radiator cap–or is it my headgaskets. .if so—after having JUST spent 2400.00- what do i do?
do i repair the gaskets–running the risk that when they disassemble the engine–there could me more damage to the block??
id otherwise just keep driving the car until it dies..but what about this intermittent overheating? maybe it wont happen again..last time it went 4-5 years without reoccurrence? sorry for the long post–any thoughts? thanks!!!
Hi Eugene,
Not sure what the first problems were but you likely have a head gasket failure by now. From the sounds of the amount of times it has overheated I’d be prepared to find engine block warpage too once it’s disassembled. They can easily sniff the radiator with an emissions analyzer and confirm this. The gurgling in the dash is coolant with exhaust bubbles trapped in it going through the heater core. I can’t comment on money just spent but this might be the situation where it’s time to leave it behind. I’m sure it will repeat itself likely sooner than later. If the block has had overheating damage along with the head gasket failure, you’re going to spend at least $5000 or up to get it fixed right.
Good luck,
Mike
hey Mike
Thanks for this,,,any thoughts as to why it happened when they changed the valve cover gaskets? they insisted that what they did had nothing at all to do with the cooing system…coiincidence?
like i said…it happened the SAME way the last time…when i was having other work done..and once resolved–.never occurred again for 5 years…
whats the connection….and why so intermittemt?
thanks for your help
eugene
Eugene,
Without having actually seeing what they saw before and after I really can’t guess anything other than a coiincidence. There’s nothing mechanically related to the failure of a head gasket when you’re replacing the valve cover gaskets. Could it be that the guys doing the valve covers just are more attentive to the head gaskets?
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
I’m having a few issues w/my 99 Forrester. Bought it a few months ago and now it has started to use more gas(terrible gas mileage) and there is white smoke coming from the exhaust. No overheating problems. No power loss. I replaced plugs, wires, air cleaner, filters, no engine light problem. No oil in radiator. No coolant loss. Can’t figure out what the problem could be. (?) 12 mpg is not acceptable! Also tried fuel additives and cleaners. Any ideas? THANX!
I would have someone check the tailpipe emissions, and the car’s fuel correction. It sounds like it may be dumping too much gas. A fault Mass Air Flow sensor can contribute to this but there are many other factors too.
It would really be nice to be monitoring the computer to watch it’s sensors, fuel correction, O2 sensors etc to see what’s going on. It isn’t a common complaint that I have an answer too. I agree that 12mpg is very poor and I expect that a good running 99 Forester can get 20 in the city and 26 on the highway.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
Hello Mike,
I have a question on the subaru coolant conditioner. My 2000 legacy had it added at 40k by subare due to the letter sent from soa, and it was never added again. My car now has 120 k on it and noticed coolant weeping from the lower back corner of the heads. I know it’s not the best solution, but would doing a coolant change with the conditioner possibly stop the leak? Or was the conditioner a preventive message?
Thanks for all the great info.
George
Hi George,
The coolant conditioner was added at the time of the recall and then was meant to be added every time your coolant was changed after that. If you have 120k on it now, hopefully it has had a couple of coolant changes in between. As far as adding the conditioner now… it can’t hurt and in a few rare cases, I have seen it stop a leak.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Your Independent Subaru Expert
Hi,
I have a 2002 Forester, had the head gaskets replaced by our Subaru dealership. Ever since then I have had low oil levels when checked. About every three thousand miles I am very low on oil and the oil light will come on if no oil is added in time. I am wondering if this has to do with the head gasket replacement. Everything else with the car is fine for now. Thank you for your time!
Hmm.. I have seen Subarus that do burn oil. Why it would start happening after a head gasket job doesn’t ringa bell. I would be interested in how much oil you have to add between 3000 mile oil changes.
Let me know,
Mike
Thank you, Mike, for your reply. The last two oil changes, right at 3000 miles, it did not register at the shop at all. We need to add at least two quarts, possibly three. It is quite a bit. I see no smoke, no smell. I just had it in the shop for a boot to be replaced and they looked to see if they saw any leaks, etc, but none were seen. I was told just to keep adding oil between oil changes as needed, but it seems like a quick bandage fix. It has 103,000 miles on it, had it since Oct 2001, it is a 2002. They said if it is truly burning oil, it would be expensive. Not sure what the best thing to do really is. Should I just keep adding oil as they suggested or will that just bite me in the end? Just looking for a truthful answer
Thanks!
I would start by asking to have an “Oil System Flush” performed. It is a procedure where a shop pours a high detergent chemical in to the oil system and runs the car for a while with this circulating in the system. It can loosen and free up stuck oil rings and sometimes improve oil consumption problems.
We use a BG Product called Engine Flush but there may be other competitive products out there that would do the same.
Also, we’ve found that switching to Pennzoil Platinum synthetic 10/30 oil has reduced oil consumption in some of our customers Subarus.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Thank you very much for your advice and tips, it does help me. I will do what you suggested for my car.
Best,
Jen
You’re welcome Jen. Best of luck.
Mike
Hello,
I have 2003 Forester that is in need of a new head gasket (leaking coolant). How important is it to have the cylinder heads resurfaced as a part of this service? I understand that the heads need to be inspected to be sure there is no warping or scratches, but how often does that inspection result in a head resurfacing?
Thanks!
Marta
Hi Marta,
With the amount of imperfections we find in the aluminum heads I’d guess that more than half get machined. Even if they are not warped, if there is any indentation from the compression ring of the head gasket it’s a good idea to err on the side of caution and machine them.
Good luck,
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the super quick response and for all of your helpful guidance! How lucky we are to have you maintaining this blog – thank you!!
One other question, if I may: while replacing the head gaskets and timing belt, it is expected that the other components only be replaced if, after inspection, they are deemed in need of replacement? In other words, should I expect that the water pump, tensioner, thermostat, idlers, crank seal, cam seals, valve cover gaskets, drive belts will be replaced as part of the head gasket/timing belt service by default or only if deemed necessary after being inspected? Should I insist that any/some/all be included? (My 2003 Forester has 71,000 miles on it.)
Thanks again!
Marta
Any related seal or gasket should be replaced regardless as well as the thermostat. The idler/tensioner pulleys and waterpump are great to do as preventive maintenance if you can afford it but if they are still in good condition they can be re-used. (you just don’t know how long they may last and it’s much less to do them now than later).
Good luck,
Mike
Thank you again for all of your sage advice!
Marta
I just realized that, due not replacing a clamp while trying to track down an Idle air valve code last summer, a coolant leak was diagnosed today. I think I may have gotten off lucky and taken it in for a flush-and-fill just as it had finally run out from the slow leak and the temps are creeping up (thank you, God, for the cool Spring). I’ve never overheated, but am wondering about any damage that might have been done, particularly in relation to the HGs.
Last week, while running up to high speed while merging, I got a cylinder misfire #4. That code eventually reset, and I’m now back to the p0400 code that seems to come up during any cool weather. Admittedly, I’ve been ignoring it. At some point I will try a new gas cap, but I make sure to click it after a fuel-up…
At any rate, I’m wondering could there be ANY relationship between running with low coolant and the misfire. When I go to get the care today, I’m going to have the code checked again.
Hi CJ,
I think you’re probably OK but there is an issue where a failing head gasket can cause a missfire. The symptom usually presents itself after sitting overnight or for a couple of days. Coolant can seep into a cylinder and thus when trying to start the car and until the coolant burns out of the cylinder, that cylinder can experience incomplete combustion from the coolant.
If you suspect this, comparing the spark plug of the suspected cylinder to the rest of the plugs is the first step. It will have a whitish buildup from the burned coolant. An additional test would be to pressurize the suspected cylinder with a leak-down tester and watch for air bubbles coming out of the radiator.
I think considering your car didn’t overheat it probably won’t be the case but at least there’s a couple of pointers to help if you do need to go further.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Indepepndent Subaru in Seattle
I purchased my 1999 forester last fall, 2.5 5 speed standard. now 97,000. I have the same oil consupsion problem as Jennifer, No smoke or indication of where the oil is going. I do a lot of DYI repair and am planin to replace the timing belt and all related parts. Should I be concerned about the oil, using over 2QTs at 3000 miles. Also can’t get over 22mpg seem low. Any other sugestion would be of great value.
thanks
Dave
Hi Dave,
Since you are a DIY kind of guy, I think you’ll be able to make use of the next advice. First of all, 2 qts in 3000 miles isn’t great but it is certainly acceptable. Once you have verified that there are no external leaks contributing and that the PCV System is flowing freely, I sould suggest an oil flush. If your oil rings on the pistion are at all gummed up, this may clean them enough to help reduce the consumption. We prefer a product called BG Motor Oil Engine Purge. You change your oil, add the BG product, Run it per the directions, change the oil again and you’re done. One other helpful hint is that for whatever reason, we’ve found that our customers that burned oil before and then began using Pennzoil Platinum Synthetic had reduced oil consumption. As far as fuel mileage, make sure you’re using a 5/30 oil and have the tires at least to 34psi. Subies just don’t get premium mpg due to the awd.
Cheers,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru in Seattle
Hi Mike
What is the best way to check the PVC system?
Dave
Hi David,
Check all the PCV Hoses to make sure they’re free of obstruction and connected properly. Also make sure the PCV Valve itself is clean and free moving. You can clean it out with carb cleaner spray or if in doubt, replace it with a genuine Subaru unit.
Mike
After a recent coolant flush, I noticed the coolant going into the reservoir and not back into the radiator issue, causing starvation and the temp to rise a couple times (never out of the normal range shown in the manual, though).
I took it to a local ind. shop. The owner put it on the lift, but found no signs of leaks on the bottom half of the heads.
Do you still think it could be bad HGs? He wants to just change the radiator, I went had and tried switching the thermostat yesterday, but now realize I put a cheap on in. We’ll see if there’s a change…
I also added some PEAK stop leak, but think I didn’t do it correctly and think it may be blocking something,
Hi,
After you have put in a Genuine Subaru thermostat and driven the car, have the shop test the radiator and recovery bottle for the presence of hydrocarbons. (assuming a thermostat doesn’t fix it). Exhaust gasses pushing past the combustion ring into the cooling system can produce air pockets that lead to overheating. It would also explain why the recovery bottle overfills but doesn’t return to the radiator. I recommend never using stop leak.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
Hi my car overheated for the first time last week (the temp gauge redlined 1/2 miles before getting home); i pulled over, popped the hood, hear a bit of bubbling, waited, and then slowly drove home. i spoke with my mechanic in the morning asking if it was safe to drive it 4 miles into the shop; he suggested i add water to the coolant tank, and 5 blocks from the shop (right after the only short, uphill section from the beach inland), it redlined again. i waited maybe ten mins then completed the trip, and explained again what happened. i’ve a 2001 subaru leg outback wagon at 103K, and was planning to bring it in for a timing belt/wp replacement (recommended at 105k), though he said my radiator was leaking and so we replaced that instead (which was good news at the time, that it was a $1700 headgasket issue).
I picked up the car before the holiday weekend with a new radiator installed, drove 30 miles south, around coastal mountains, without issue, and likewise, a trip out to the beach later in the long weekend. Unfortunately, 7 miles into the return trip the temp gauge redlined again, this time, popping the cooling tank cover and some green radiator fluid. The local gas attendant mentioned it could be a sticky thermostat; gave 2 jugs of water, we drove 2 mins back up the hill towards the freeway, and overheated again. Opted for a tow the next day to the shop, the thermostat (prob non-subaru) is being installed, and was told it might be a partially-blown head gasket issue.
My questions are:
Should I have had my car towed to the shop the 1st time (could i have damaged / blown / warped parts in the quick trip to my mechanic)?
As I am unable to afford the HG replacement right now, is it safe to drive it around town, avoiding hills and checking coolant levels frequently?
I’m finishing up making payments, still, so while I like having a car, am wondering if $500 for TB and WP within the next 1000 miles, possible $1700 for HG, and possibly blowing a 2nd radiator or other parts valves / damage / repair (‘new’ used engine?) might outweigh the value of what this car is worth to me and for resale.
I appreciate reading these questions and of your expert advice and hopeful for a reply. Thank you!
Hi,
Deciding whether to fix the Subaru or not depends on how long you want to keep the car. It’s usually pretty simple. If you like the car it’s still way less expensive in dollars per year driven than purchasing a new car. I wrote an article a few years back that may help with your decision.
http://www.smart-service.com/mikescorner-fixornot.html
From your story above, I would recommend waiting until you can afford to do it all. There is overlapping labor when doing the timing belt and water pump with the head gasket job. I’m sure the valves are ok and probably the radiator too. I’d have them disassemble and inspect your engine before deciding on a used engine. Installing a used engine is still the same as your old engine before it failed. (unless you put all new gaskets on the used engine before installing it).
Good luck and go ahead and call us if you have any more questions.
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Thanks for such a quick response. Do you think it was a bad idea to drive the car into the shop the first time, or do you think this that action was minor, given the mechanical problems with my car? Do you think it might be ok to drive my car with the new thermostat while waiting (saving) for the new TB and WP (and HG) and do you have any recommendations on how to maintain my car until the big repairs can be scheduled? Thanks again!!!
It would have been better if you had the car towed in but in most cases I’ve seen you’re probably still ok. The less driving you do the better until the Subaru can be fixed. If it’s sitting you still want to start it once a day to make sure that coolant doesn’t leak into a cylinder and rust the cylinders. If you must drive it’s a risk vs reward decision. The risk becomes higher for more severe damage each time it overheats. You can open the radiator cap every morning before you start it and top it with water and then fill the coolant recovery tank about 1/2 full. This may help it limp along until further repairs are made.
I hope it all works out for the best,
Mike
I have 1998 Subaru and was recently hit by a women in a Jeep
Liberty who ran a stop sigh and smashed into my passenger rear door. There is about $3000 worth of damage (replacing front and rear doors) mostly in the front end of the rear quarter panel ~ no frame damage. I have had the head gasket replaced and transmission, radiator, etc. Regular maintenance. The insurance company wants to total it and pay $3100. I am trying to find support that the work I have had done increases the life and the value of the car but they are claiming it is maintenance. Any input or guidance is greatly appreciated. I really love my Subie. Thanx
Hi Lisa,
I was out of town so sorry for the late reply. I’m sorry to hear of the damage to the car. It’s really a bummer when you invest into the repairs of a vehicle and that happens. I think common sense alone prevails that the work you did on the Subaru increases the value. Routine maintenance and repair normally doesn’t increase the value but if it’s but major repairs if done recently can help add value. We’ve seen customers of ours take their Subaru repair receipts to an insurance claim and get more for their car than the original offer. It doesn’t increase the value the full amount of the repair but does help. Remember, be prepared with all of your documentation, be firm with them also. Reminding them of the fact that you’re only asking for replacement value. Also, if you weren’t injured, remind them that you’re not trying to take advantage with some bogus injury claim, just want the ability to replace what you had with the same. Request a personal meeting with the adjuster (it’s harder to say no in person) Look up multiple blue book information(nada.com and kbb.com) as well as print out dealer ads of similar makes and models to support your position that it will take more than $3100 to replace. An insurance adjuster can have significant leeway on what they finally give you for your wrecked vehicle. Used car values on Japanese cars have actually increased somewhat due to the shortage of new ones out of Japan. It’s been my experience that if you strongly focus on the fact of how much $$ the car’s replacement value is you’ll do better. The service and repair you’ve done only strengthens the argument that you should even get slightly more than replacement value.
I know that if I were selling a mechanically sound 1998 Outback that had new head gaskets and had less than 150k miles on it in the Seattle area, I’d probably be asking $4500 and probably get it.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert in Seattle
I got my 02 Legacy in 2007 with 54k. @ about 90k I noticed a spot on our driveway, took it to the dealer and they said the rear main seal was bad. They replaced the head gaskets and so forth. Today I notice a puddle on the drive again. look under the car and there is oil everywhere. I cant tell where it is coming from but there is alot on the filter itself and around that area. I started it and the oil light came on. Check they oil and it didnt read on the stick. It ended up needed 3 qts. SOO, I called the dealer and they said that, there is no warranty for the work they did and head gaskets only last about 50k.. I do not believe this to be true, what is your opinion.
Hi Tom,
I guess my question is how long has it been since they did the repairs on your Subaru? It could be as simple as an oil filter that is improperly installed. By the way, any Subaru dealer will provide a 12month warranty on their repairs as long as they used their parts. If it’s still within 12 months of the repair I would take it back. It may have nothing to do with what they did but if it does it would be covered under warranty.
If you don’t get the help you feel is fair, call 1800 SUBARU3.
Be careful not to drive it any more if it’s leaking that badly. Running the engine low on oil is something they may not cover if you continue to drive it once you’ve identified a problem.
Good luck and please let me know how it works out.
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Seattle’s Largest Independent Subaru Expert
Hi !
I just read your original post from ages ago and I found it really informative. Thank you for having posts like these to help Subaru newbies like me:)
i just bought a 2000 Subaru forester with 95k ( when I say recently, I mean yesterday) the guy i bought it from says that it has had all its regular maintenance but no major repairs. He said he expects that i will need to change the timing belt soon. He hass been the only owner of the car and swears by Subaru reliability.
I live in NYC and am planning to relocate to Nashville and take the 14 hour car trip there with my new subie this weekend.
On the drive today I noticed two issues that I did not catch during the test drive :
1. when idling the car rumbles on and of , it will rumble for about 45 seconds and then stop for about 30 and rumble again for another 45. When not rumbling it sounds quiet and smooth. On the high way it is also VERY smooth. But it sometimes rumbles when driving on streets but not all the time.
some times there is a very quick thd thd thd noise
2. The car produces a gurgling or bubbling sound sometimes when I am driving it or when it has recently stopped I have not had it long enough to notice it too often but it seem to be in the center.
my questions are
do you have any idea what these issues might be ?
do you think they are related ?
what is the average cost of a timing belt and until when is it safe to drive it before I change it ?
Thank you so much for reading
Lis
Hi Mike,
I just pulled the head gaskets out of my 2000 subaru outback. I am replacing the water pump, just replaced the thermostat, replacing all the belts, and was wondering about getting the cylinder head/block looked at too. When looking into one of the intake ports I can see daylight through two of the valves. Does that mean that the valves are shot? The car’s temperature gauge redlined twice before I took the engine apart. I am going to take it to a machine shop to see if they can test them. But I did not take the valve rocker assembly or camshafts off before pulling the heads out. Do I have to completely disassemble cylinder head before taking it into the shop? Thanks
Hi again Mike,
Also I was wondering if I can re-use the original cylinder head bolts. I was reading that if they are TTY bolts you need to get new ones – is this true? If so I was looking on a parts website and they have the bolts listed as either “inner” or “outer” bolts. Which ones do I need? I tried to measure my original bolts and the closest measurements match the outer bolts. Here is the website if it helps.
Ian
http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList.cfm?Subaru/2000/Outback/Limited/2.5L_H4/allB/Engine/Cylinder_Block_Components/Engine_Cylinder_Head_Bolt/pagenum1/tabS
Hi Ian,
Subaru does not recommend replacing the head bolts with the head gasket job. (unless it looked rusty, deformed, damaged etc). On the other hand Six Star does recommend it but does not actually require it.
We have been re-using the head bolts with Six Star gaskets for years and have not had any issue with them. The threads of the bolt need to be clean and oiled before installing as well as the block threads need to be clean (run a tap down them to be sure).
If you want to purchase new here’s what you need
11095AA123 qty 8
11095aa141 qty 4
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
I think the rumbling may have to do with when the Air Conditioning cycling on and off. It may be a good idea to listen with the hood up and turn the air conditioner on and off to see if the noise is duplicated.
The bubbling noise could be a symptom of air pockets in the coolant circulating through the heater core or air pockets in the AC system cycling through the evaporator.
Also, the timing belt is due at 105k miles and I’m guessing you will find timing belt replacement to run around $375-475 depending on labor rates etc.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Hi,
Daylight through the valves may be normal if the cam is stil in the head. If you rotate the cam so both the valves are closed, you should be able to put water in the intake and exhaust ports and not have any leak past the valves. If you close the valves and it leaks, you should get a valve job.
Also, A machine shop can resurface the head with the cam/rockers in but will need it disassembeled to do a valve grind.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Do you think it’s worth spending $5000 on a 2002 Outback with 163,000. It’s recently had headgasket, radiator, timing belt and brakes replaced. With these repairs all done in the last year, I was hoping to get to 200,000. What do you think?
Hi Brian,
I think with the price of todays cars and even the strong value of the used car market one can certainly justify spending $5000 on an 02 Outback in an effort to get another 5 years out of it or 50000 miles. That $5000 can be paid off pretty quickly compared to the 5 years of payments you have to deal with buying new. I would only caution to make sure there are no internal engine issues like a rod knock or a heavy oil consumption issue like bad rings.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
You don’t tell us what psi a subaru cap holds.
There are different Subaru radiator caps. The pressure is printed on the cap.
Mike
Mike,
Hello, I live in the Chicago area and have a 1998 Subaru Forester I bought new. I have used it on many camping and road trips adn so far it has never left me stranded. I have been very happy with it. I’ve had it maintained well, but now at 102,000 miles, it was leaking oil on the garage floor, so I took it to a neighborhood shop earlier this week. They diagnosed head gasket problem and I OK’d the repair. Including replacement of ignition wires, gaskets on both sides, and taxes, I paid $470. (The oil loss was actually only 3/4 quart in six months.) No coolant problem that I am aware of. After little driving for two days, I made a longer shopping trip and the next morning the biggest of the spots was back again!
I’m taking it back Friday morning for them to look at again. My friend says I should have just kept a spare can of oil in the car and not spent money on this, but I didn’t want to chance a more serious problem down the road, since I like to occasionally take a long road trip (by myself).
The car is only worth about $3,000 but I don’t have enough saved yet for the next one and my main source of income at the moment is Social Security.
In the last few years, I’ve had new CV boots, a slave cylinder replaced, new brakes and tires. The clutch and timing belt were replaced a few years back. The car seems to be running fine, and I hope to keep it two or three more years.
I know it’s hard at a distance, but if you have an advice I’d appreciate it. I was hoping to buy another Forester new someday, but I don’t like what they did with the styling for 2011 (ugh–are they trying to turn it into a minivan?).
Thank you,
Nancy
Hello Nancy,
From your description, it sounds like the shop replaced the valve cover gaskets on your Forester. If they would have replaced the head gaskets they would have charged you $1500-$2500 depending on their shop rates and procedures. Even though Subarus have head gasket problems, yours may not have them in this case. It may be that they just didn’t get something tight on the valve cover gasket job.
My first recommendation is to take the Forester badk to them and explain that you just had the oil leak repaired and now it’s leaking again. Hopefully they will take care of it under warranty for you or explain why they fixed one oil leak without making you aware of others.
Good luck,
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
In Seattle
Mike,
Thank you–you are right on. I have to apologize because after reading about all these head gasket problems, I confused the two gaskets. In fact, they did replace the valve cover gaskets. I had taken the car back last Friday, they put dye in the oil, and I took it back yesterday. They determined that the new valve cover gaskets were leaking. They said they were defective and will be sent back because they are under warranty. They are to be replaced again today at no charge and hopefully everything will be OK this time.
Nancy,
Thanks for clearing that up. Glad to hear when a shop stands behind their work!
Mike
Hi Mike,
My wifes car is a 1999 Outback and it is pushing 200,000 miles. It has been and still is a great and very sound car. I do all of the mechanic work myself as I grew up on a farm and my family has been involved in many facets of stock car racing since 1968.
Reading through your blog on head gasket issues, I’m thinkin my wifes car has finally suffered this issue. It has been smelling of burned coolant for quite some time now when we stop and park and we have had to keep close tabs on the coolant level. This weekend on a Christmas outing, it was really pouring the smoke off the motor on the drivers side when we started the car. I’m thinking we’ve suffered that near catastrophic time when I’m going to have to be #1 mechanic real soon.
I read a good portion of your blog here and didn’t see anything mentioning if I will need to pull the motor to replace head gaskets or can it be done in the car?
Also, if I need to pull the motor, I may as well look at purchasing a rebuild or low mileage motor to re-install.
Where do you recommend purchasing a replacement motor? I live in Central Washington near Wenatchee if that helps as to where to shop. I see you are in Seattle so we are close.
Thanks for the info and taking the time to do what you do here.
Nicholas
Hi Nicholas,
It sounds like the engine had enough miles on it and enough mechanical issues that it may be the better case to put in a used engine. I recommend Cory at BnR auto wrecking in Portland.(800) 332-1120. He usually has a reasonable selection of engines. If you get a used engine you may at least want to install new valve cover gaskets and a timing belt before installing it.
Have fun!
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru in Seattle
Hi Mike,
FYI, I just bought a Paraut water pump, and oddly enough, it looks just like the Subaru water pump with cast metal impeller (as on the left side of your picture, i.e. Subaru OEM), not like the one on the right side of your picture, which was what I was expecting based on a Web image of the product, just like the right side of your picture. I guess that they sell OEM as well as their own specs, and it is a ‘crap shoot’ as to which one is in the box when you buy on the Web. I will say that it is heavier than other aftermarket water pumps, and that it came with Subaru’s part number on the invoice and box, 21111 AA007.
Hi Jim,
I’m glad to hear that you got the better waterpump with the cast impeller. It’s a roll of the dice when you purchase from the internet.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
Seattle WA
Mike,
In your above discussion of thermostats, you write that “Subaru actually states that copper in a Subaru cooling system is ill advised and may cause excessive electrolysis and corrosion.” Do you have a reference for this statement? I am corresponding with Stant to ask them if they have any non-copper-containing thermostats for my 2004 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport (2.5 L normally aspirated), but they claim “All automotive thermostats have copper as the metal encasing the heat motor…including Subaru,” which seems to contradict your statement. I just want to know who is correct before I replace my thermostat since I have no desire to do anything that would prematurely damage my engine.
Hi Eugene,
I have posted the content of a bulletin posted by Subaru of America back in 2007 for your reference.
Take care,
Mike Corbin
Independent Subaru Expert
Edmonds, WA
Bulletin Number: 09-47-07; Date: 08/31/07 Page
Introduction
The purpose of this bulletin is to reinforce Subaru of America’s policy regarding the use of
coolant flushing machines and/or cooling system flushing agents. Subaru does not recommend
the use of any flushing machine or flushing agent under any circumstances.
If a flushing machine has been used to service other brand vehicles with copper radiators, a
chemical reaction between copper ions and Subaru coolant may occur. This could also cause
future clogging of the radiator. If a flushing machine is dedicated to only Subaru vehicles, it
is still not recommended as there is no way to know that the coolants being removed and processed
through the machine during servicing are / were exclusively Subaru Genuine Coolant.
If regular flushing is required, only use fresh tap water. Do not use hard water. Hard water will
create calcium build up which will clog the radiator.
• When adding, replacing or servicing the cooling system, always use Genuine Subaru Long
Life Coolant. Genuine Subaru Long Life Coolant is a phosphate (non-Amine) type and is
specially formulated for all Subaru vehicles with aluminum engines and radiators. Coolant
of other types may not provide the proper protection to aid against corrosion of aluminum
parts.
• Whenever the coolant is changed, you must add Genuine Subaru Cooling System
Conditioner. Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner has been tested and approved
for aluminum engines and radiators.
• Do not use after-market coolant reinforcement agents, sealers and/or flushing agents as
those chemicals could corrode aluminum parts.
Warranty Information
Any coolant system failure and/or damage resulting from that failure that is a direct result of
using a coolant flushing machine is not a matter for warranty.
CAUTION: VEHICLE SERVICING PERFORMED BY UNTRAINED PERSONS COULD
RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY TO THOSE PERSONS OR TO OTHERS.
Subaru Service Bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians ONLY. They are written to inform those technicians of
conditions that may occur in some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper servicing of the vehicle. Properly
trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do the job correctly and safely. If a condition
is described, DO NOT assume that this Service Bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition.
NUMBER: 09-47-07
DATE: 08/31/07
APPLICABILITY: All Vehicles
SUBJECT: Coolant Flushing Machines and Additives
SERVICE BULLETIN
ATTENTION:
GENERAL MANAGER ❏
PARTS MANAGER ❏
CLAIMS PERSONNEL ❏
SERVICE MANAGER ❏
IMPORTANT – All
Service Personnel
Should Read and
Initial in the boxes
provided, right.
PROUD PARTNER
Thank you, Mike. The bulletin clarifies the issue.
At 90K miles, our 2005 Forester’s CEL came on and engine started missing. Codes say #1 and 4 cylinder misfire. Plugs and wires look good. I did a compression check and #4 cylinder was 120psi, while the others were running about 170psi. Put a little oil in #4 cylinder for a compression retest and pressure was still 120.
So, I’m thinking burnt valve and plan on doing a leak down test to see if air is coming out of the intake, exhaust or maybe the radiator, for a blown head gasket.
I’ll do the timing belt, w pump, etc. since it’s needed at 105K anyway. From reading your post it looks like head gaskets are a problem with these rigs too.
Do these engines have issues with burn valves? This rig has been doing great up to this point.
How am I doing so far?
I would like to buy the superior gasket set, and water pump you have written about, if you can give me the info.
Do you have to pull the engine to get the heads off?
Also, who makes the best timing belt?
Thanks for your time!
You’re welcome.
Hi Dan,
Part of my recommendation has to do with what engine your Subaru Forester is equipped with. If it’s a normally aspirated then replacing the head gaskets will be an eventuality so you might as well do it now when you’re doing the valve job(assuming you confirm it). There was no common issue with the valves on that model. We have seen a few turbo equipped models that were running regular unleaded (a big no-no) and did valve and or piston damage during the life of the car.
Pulling the engine makes the job nicer but it can be done in the car. When you do it use Six Star Head gaskets and a Paraut water pump. The genuine Subaru timing belt is great as well as the Mitsuboshi brand. (original equipment manufacturer).
Good luck in your endeavor!
Mike Corbin
Smart Service
Independent Subaru Expert
Greater Seattle, Kirkland and vicinity
Thanks for your reply Mike.
Have you seen a cylinder with low compression cause a cylinder misfire warning before? Particularly one with just a 50psi differential like I’m seeing. I’m sure it would show up if a cylinder had no compression at all.
BTW, this engine is naturally aspirated. So, If do have a bad valve I’ll need to determine why it went bad. Like maybe the cylinder is running lean and overheating the exhaust valve. Any other ideas on why a valve would burn? I recall hearing that engine doing some pinging from time to time, but the plugs had no sign of pre-ignition.
I’ll order the Six Star head gaskets. I saw them on your home page.
Thanks again.
A 50psi difference is enough to set a missfire code. As far as why the valve burned, it may have been poorly sealing due to carbon buildup on the seat. May have been a bit too tight from the factory etc. Make sure you look at all of the valves when you have it apart. If the car has had substandard fuel it may have pitting on the valve seats and at least need them to be lapped in.
Good luck,
Mike
I pulled the exhaust on both heads and there is some oil dripping out of #4 exhaust port and it’s pretty carbon’d up. #2 has just a bit of oil coming out of it. #1 and 3 exhaust ports are nice and dry.
Not sure where the oil is coming from, but it looks like you’re right about carbon getting under an exhaust valve.
I’ve never done anything major to a Subaru before, but they seem pretty easy to work on so far. Lots of room and they seem to be engineer’d for ease of repair.
I think I’ll pull the engine since it looks pretty easy to do on this car and I should change to clutch out while I’m at this. I may change my opinion about ease of repair in a few days though.
Thanks for your input!
Oh wait, I put a little oil in #4 to check for ring vs valve leakage. Still way more carbon’d up than #1 and 3 though.
Is there an “RV” type cam available for Foresters? I’d like a little more low end torque, if I can get it, without spending a bunch of dough.
Hi Dan,
You can check with Delta Cams in our area to see what they have available. http://deltacam.com/
Good luck,
Mike
Hey Dan,
While you have it apart you may pull the pistons to inspect the rings. If the oil is coming out of the exhaust you may have a ring issue also. When it’s this far apart it never hurts to think about pulling the pistons and at least cleaning the oil rings.
Mike
I bought a leak-down tester and #4 is blowing air out of its exhaust, big time, and was showing almost 100% leakage! #’s 1 and 2 were at about 60% leakage, but I couldn’t hear anything anywhere. #3 was showing a little less than 40%.
The engine was stone cold, but, I believe, it’s the differential I’m most interested in anyway, which kinda sucks!
I’ll get the heads off and see how the cylinders look.
I take back what I said about Subaru’s being easy to work on. Looking at where the valve covers are I can imagine getting them off and adjusting valves, pulling heads, etc. would be a PIA with the engine in the car!
I found a machine shop that does all of the local Subaru dealer’s work, which is good.
Just thought you might be interested in what I have found so far.
Dan W
Mike,
I was blessed to find a mechanic that is willing to work with me with respect to the use of Six Star gaskets on my ’98 Outback Limited with a 2.5L. You have already mentioned and I understand the requirement for the heads to be machined to no rougher than a 50RA finish.
However, his questions to me were:
Is there any requirement to use a specific type or brand of coolant after installing Six Star head gaskets (you have already stated that it would not be necessary to use the Subaru coolant additive) and are the manufacturers bolt torque specifications still applicable?
Although not required, we prefer to use genuine Subaru coolant ourselves.
Mike